The IUSB Vision Weblog

The way to crush the middle class is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation. – Vladimir Lenin

Fact Checking the Palin/Biden Debate

Posted by iusbvision on October 3, 2008

Biden tried to lock Palin up by ratting off a dozen figures and allegations in 10 seconds knowing that no one could answer them all in a one minute response. It didnt work. Palin didn’t take the bait to get dragged too far in the mud and kept off message. Biden made a similar mistake that Reagan did in his first debate, he tried to cram too many figures into his answers… and is likely still praying this morning that the elite media doesn’t fact check him….because lots of his “facts” are proving to be whoppers…And of course very little elite media coverage.

We fact checked the Obama/McCain debate and gave you a little reminder HERE and our first post about the Palin/Biden debate is HERE.

We arent alone in pointing this one out LGF did too:

In tonight’s debate, Joe Biden claimed that Barack Obama never said he would meet unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

That was a blatant, shameless lie.

Obama on meeting these rogue leaders at the presidential level without precondiction.

Biden Gaffed on the Constitution when he said that Article I of the Constitution covered the executive branch when it fact it covers the Congress. Not a mistake a judiciary member should make.

Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we’ve had probably in American history. The idea he doesn’t realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that’s the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

Ouch…. and it gets worse…Biden’s entire point that Cheney is the most dangerous VP in history because Cheney said that he can go and preside over the Senate as President of the Senate… well Cheney is right folks.. The VP is the President of the Senate and only casts a vote if there is a tie, but he can preside over the Senate if they are in session. The President Pro-Tempore is the temporary President of the Senate as long as the VP is not there. Biden was just plain wrong. Don’t believe me?

U.S. Constitution – Article I Section III

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall chuse (old English spelling folks) their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

Update: Hotair.com wrote about this issue HERE.  

National Review hits Biden on the load of BS he piled on about Hezbollah and Lebanon…we should have gotten NATO peacekeepers in there he said… well I guess that would have dome better than the UN Peacekeepers that were there since the Israeli pull-out of South Lebanon right Joe…(whoops)  Link HERE.

Obama on the Our Trroops are Air-Rading Villages and Killing Civilians…

August 14, 2007 In Nashua, NH, Monday, Obama said that the U.S. has “gotta get the job done” in Afghanistan which requires us to have enough troops that we’re not just air raiding villages and killing civilians which is causing enormous problems there.

“We’ve got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we’re not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there.” 

 

Rove on the 14, 16 points

UPDATE:That canard that Rove mentions about the “nuclear weapons bill that Obama went to Dick Lugar and got done [paraphrasing]” as Bidensaid, Rove is right. I looked up this legislation previously and wrote about it HERE:

For example, the law with Republican Dick Lugar was a tweak to the older Dick Lugar/Sam Nunn law that authorized the United States to buy nuclear weapons from Russia so they would not be tempted to sell them on the black market (we would make sure that they were destroyed). The tweak came after a Senate junket overseas that both Lugar and Obama attended. Lugar wanted to tweak the law to buy up conventional weapons too so they would not end up in terrorist hands. The change in the law was passed by unanimous consent.

Does anyone really believe that Lugar would not have gotten this done without Obama? The other “big bi-partisan bill” that the Obama campaign talks about is a bill with Chuck Hagel asking the Bush Administration for a report. This sort of thing is done regularly and it was done by unanimous consent.

 …Obama went to Lugar and reached out huh Joe….  like ohh ya it was all you Obama….LAUGHABLE

“Joe Biden’s analysis of George Bush’s Middle East policy had 7 errors in 60 seconds.” – Charles Krauthammer interviewed on Special Report with Brit Hume 10/3/2008

These 14 points are from the McCain camp so I took them with a grain of salt, but as I have been going through them so far they check out, but I am still digging so corrections may come later: 

UPDATE II: Ok The McCain Campiagn posted extensive documentation for these – so far what the McCain Camp is saying is checking out. I figure that they have to keep spin to a minimum on this because the elite media will hook onto anything at all to zing Palin. Here is the link.

JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT
1. TAX VOTE:
Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY. [Link to the votes HERE]
~
2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it. [True and we posted the video]
~
3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.” [True – was well reported and Democrats votes against drilling and other energy production are well documented – Biden rips Bush on energy by JEFF MONTGOMERY • The News Journal • July 15, 2008]
~
4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage. [Link to the votes HERE.]
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5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate. [True and we posted the video and wrote an article about it]
~
6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times. [Procedural votes can get pretty convoluted so this one is hard to say either way but here is the link to McCain’s energy plan and we suggest that people just read it for themselves and make a decision]
~
7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false.

[McCain is right about this one, the New York Times started this nonsensesaying that if people use the McCain tax credit plan to get health insurance over their employers insurance plan, the employers may just decide to give the money they would have spent on insurance to the employee. If the employee gets a raise as a result he will pay more in taxes. DUH… if you get a raise you should expect to pay taxes on the raise.. but that doesnt mean that your health insurance benefits are taxed…. HERE is the link to McCain’s health plan.]
~
8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax.

[McCain is right about this one as well. The tax plan on energy companies in Alaska is NOT a windfall profits tax, it is a graduated energy tax based on the price of a barrel of oil. The tax on a barrel of oil in Alaska is 22.5% and the tax goes up by 0.2% per dollar over $52.00 a barrel. So at $100 a barrel that is a 9.6% extra tax per barrel, hardly the profit killing windfall profits tax that Hillary and Obama have supported.]
~
9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

[True – This was media spin from a San-Francisco paper. The General said he wanted more troops but wanted an implimentation that was slightly different than the Iraq-Surge plan, so I guess you could call it the Afghan surge plan  – LINK]
~
10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

[So true we have written about this at length and President Clinton came outand sided with McCain on this one. The law that Obama claims did this, was passed 90-8 by the Senate and Biden voted for it.
Factcheck.org:

The truth is, however, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act had little if anything to do with the current crisis. In fact, economists on both sides of the political spectrum have suggested that the act has probably made the crisis less severe than it might otherwise have been.]

~
11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right. [Everyone knows this, when McCain first started asking for the surge many Republicans and Donald Rumsfeld opposed McCain, so McCain demanded that Rumsfeld resign. McCain was proved correct.]
~
12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

[Democrats have no credibility when it comes to tax cuts, they talk about them in the campaign but when the bills show up in Congress almost everyone who pays federal income taxes ends up paying a higher rate. Just examining the attempts to raise taxes or reapeal tax cuts over recent years, former Hillary supporter Donald Trump is right when he says that Democrats “taxing the rich” end up hitting lots of other people too. Al Gore’s middle class tax cut was so targeted that almost no one qualified for it and Bill Clinton’s middle class tax cut in 1993 was the largest tax increase in US history at the time and did not cut middle class taxes. 

Obama called for a doubling of the Capital Gains Tax admitting that he knew it would lower government revenue when called on it in a primary debate saying that he was more interested in “fairness” instead of revenue. Capital Gains Tax directly affects the housing market.

Democrats also refuse to acknowledge the increases in government revenue that are often a result of tax rate decreases in spite of the fact that they are well documented.]

~
13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.” [Having looked at the legislation myself I am calling this as true]
~
14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan. [True – and laughable. The top marginal tax rate under Reagan was 28%. The top rate is higher than that NOW, so how can the rate be the same as Reagan when for some groups the rate will go up? Ridiculous!]

UPDATE III: New York Post Blasts Biden Lies!

THE LIES BIDEN TOLD

For all the focus on Sarah Palin’s graceful performance in Thursday’s vice presidential showdown, a more significant spectacle was taking place behind the other rostrum.

That’s where Joe Biden, speaking with the pompus self-importance befitting his 36 years in the Senate, told one baffling fib after another.

Some, of course, were just Biden being Biden. He smeared Dick Cheney as “the most dangerous vice president we’ve had probably in American history.”

To which we must take specific offense: After all, the founder of this newspaper, Alexander Hamilton, was killed in a duel by then-Vice President Aaron Burr. (Certainly Burr was a better shot than Cheney.)

But that’s a matter of opinion.

Not so, some other Biden gems:

* It’s “simply not true” that Barack Obama said he’d meet Iran’s president without preconditions, Biden insisted.

Yet when Obama was asked if he would in a debate during the primaries, he said yes – a position Biden back then termed “naive.”

* Biden said he’s “always supported” clean-coal technology – after stating emphatically only last month, “We’re not supporting clean coal.”

* Biden asserted – repeatedly – that the US spends more money on three weeks’ combat in Iraq than it’s spent in Afghanistan since the war began.

That claim’s only remotely intelligible if he limits Afghan expenditures merely to US rebuilding efforts – and even then, he’s off by a factor of three, according to State Department numbers.

* Also on Afghanistan, Biden insisted – repeatedly – that “our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work” there.

That may not be an out-and-out lie, but it took supposed foreign-policy neophyte Sarah Palin to bring any context or nuance to the statement.

What Gen. David McKiernan had said was that tribal realities in Afghanistan are very different than in Iraq – requiring a different form of cooperation.

But he flatly said more troops, and more local engagement, are needed.

Sounds like a surge to us.

* Then there was what might have been the biggest head-scratcher of the night. Said Biden of the Bush administration’s supposed Middle East follies:

“When . . . along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, ‘Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don’t, Hezbollah will control it.”

Huh?

Assuming that Biden was referring to when, in 2005, American and French pressure helped the Lebanese people kick Syrian troops out of Lebanon, who ever thought NATO occupation of that deeply divided country was a good idea?

As if America’s NATO allies would have gone in the first place.

But hey, as long as it makes Biden sound presidential.

At some point, Americans have to wonder: Is this a fellow who should be a heartbeat away from the White House?

2 Responses to “Fact Checking the Palin/Biden Debate”

  1. Hans said

    Your “fact checking” is just a tad lop-sided, isn’t it? How about checking some of Palin’s facts? Apparently you’re only interested in the truth when it helps your cause. You’ll quote the *entire* list from McCain’s campaign, which you are, of course, taking “with a grain of salt.” Feigned impartiality which you immediately justify with grade-school logic of why “they figure that they have to keep spin to a minimum.”

    You even include a link to factcheck.org, when it suites your needs, but I noticed that factcheck includes some whoppers from Palin which you conveniently ignore.

    Fact checking indeed. Worthless, biased, echoes in the blogosphere.

    [Maybe you should have watched the debate – Palin didn’t rattle off 7 blatent errors in 60 seconds, she didn’t get Article I of the Constitution wrong. She didn’t lie about what John McCain said as Biden lied about what Obama said. She knew that she had 1 or 2 minute answers and just chose to introduce herself to the American people and talk about what she wanted to do. If you took 30 seconds and looked around you will see that we give Republicans grief too when they get it wrong. I even wrote an article called the case against Mike Huckabee and the case against John McCain. If you have something specific bring it on.

    Take a look at this Wall Street Journal piece

    Bottom line, your guys are liars in the worst way and you don’t care.

    So lets take your Factcheck Allegation – I quote Factcheck when they get it right so let’s look at what they said.

    It’s true that key Democrats opposed the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, which would have established a single, independent regulatory body with jurisdiction over Fannie and Freddie – a move that the Government Accountability Office had recommended in a 2004 report. Current House Banking Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts opposed legislation to reorganize oversight in 2000 (when Clinton was still president), 2003 and 2004, saying of the 2000 legislation that concern about Fannie and Freddie was “overblown.” Just last summer, Senate Banking Committee chairman Chris Dodd called a Bush proposal for an independent agency to regulate the two entities “ill-advised.”

    But saying that Democrats killed the 2005 bill “while Mr. Obama was notably silent” oversimplifies things considerably. The bill made it out of committee in the Senate but was never brought up for consideration. At that time, Republicans had a majority in the Senate and controlled the agenda. Democrats never got the chance to vote against it or to mount a filibuster to block it.

    What FactCheck leaves out is that the Democrats were filibustering most all significant legislation except for appropriations at the time and blocking judicial votes and the whole nine yards. When every Democrat member of the Senate committee voted no, John McCain joined on as a co-sponsor of S.190 to attempt to get some Democrats to come along before they brought it to the floor. No Democrats would so Santorum didn’t waste time by bringing it to the floor because it wasnt going to get 60 votes. So McCain wasn’t wrong, Obama and the other Democrats were noticably silent and all Factcheck had to do was ask the people involved what happened after the Committee vote which has been written about.

    Like we have always said, Factcheck gets it write 80% of the time, but sometimes they really blow it and do not check press accounts and the public record as well as we do.

    Let me know if you want to try again… good luck.

    – Editor]

  2. Hans said

    Tee hee, hit a nerve, have I?

    First of all, your accusation regarding “my guys” being liars and that I “don’t care” shows you for the lazy partisan you are. My comment didn’t take a partisan position at all, it took a position against your one-sided fact checking. Your knee-jerk reaction and erroneous conclusion regarding my party position reinforces my conclusion regarding your bias.

    I’m sure there are points where you disagree with FactCheck, and even where they are wrong, but none of that addresses the central point of my comment; that you are interested only in fact checking one side. You linked to a site that has information on statements made by both parties, showing that you are fully aware of those statements and not merely ignorant of them. My complaint isn’t that you don’t ever give Republicans grief, it’s that you purposely avoided addressing the truth of Palin’s statements in the debate.

    This isn’t a high-school football game. It isn’t “our side” vs. “their side”, were talking about running the country here, and who is best suited to do that. Note how you twisted my complaint against *you* into one against “your team”? And your response is to make foolish assumptions about my beliefs, and to “prove” that you know times when “my team” has lied, when I never even suggested anything about the truth of your or Biden’s claims. Your one-sided analysis (and response to my post) doesn’t contribute to the public debate, you’re just adding to the partisan echo chamber in the blogosphere.

    I voted for McCain in the primary. If I don’t vote for him in the general election, it will be because of his continued pandering to the religious-right and, now likely, the qualifications, intelligence, and positions of his choice for VP. Some of which I would hope should resonate with your claimed libertarian view that I noted in my “30 second” trip through your site.

    And finally, yes, I watched the debate. Try again yourself.

    [You didn’t hit a nerve at all – If you were to take a look around you will see that I respond to almost everyone who posts. You say that you voted for McCain in the primary – so did lots of Democrats who hate Republicans.

    Ohh that evil religious right… like George Washington, Patrick Henry, Abe Lincoln, William Wilburforce, James Madison and Ronald Reagan. My conclusion about your party position is not erronious and I most certainly am biased. Everyone is. I state my biases clearly. I am a traditionalist in the American political sense which for you would put me to the right of your center but a bit to the left of George Washington.

    The facts I present certainly do seem to favor one side because in this isnstance the facts DO favor one side. So since you dont have what it takes to take on the facts I presented in the post, nor did you even attempt to tackle the facts I presented in my response to your first response, you just try to make it about me, or the messenger as it were. I wish I could say that your tactic was original, but in fact it is what most leftists do when they post here as they are often short on facts and long on emotionalism.

    If you had any really good facts or refutation you would have used them by now. I imagine all I can say now is thanks for being more of the same and bid you a good evening. – Editor]

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